dragonyphoenix | Spike, Faith, denial, and aggression

Spike, Faith, denial, and aggression

I read a comment that compared Spike and Faith and added that Spike wanted, for Buffy, to “make her feel” in SR. I'm finding an interesting difference between Spike and Faith. Her violence and aggression, especially when turned against innocents, comes from her trying not to feel, trying to avoid her own internal pain through denial and acting out. Spike is aggressive, at least in the beginning, because he's a vampire and that's what vamps do. He feels his pain and does not try to avoid it, but there is some denial going on. In Lover's Walk (that's the one where he kidnaps Willow and Xander, right?), he is in denial – he thinks he can get Dru back – and he is hurting others because of that denial but only because he thinks Willow can help him get Dru back. On the other hand, he is feeling that pain; he's not denying his pain.

I don't know what that says about the characters, if anything, just me musing as I have my breakfast.

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For some odd reason I've been rewatching S1, some of the episodes more than once. ;-)

he "represents the party line": When we first meet him, he's not quite himself. He's so stuffy that he doesn't quite seem human although he does get over it.

I would want to give Giles a second chance too!

I keep meaning to do a re-watch; sort of busy at this point, so that'll have to wait. I know though that you've been reading

bone_dry1013's Origins/Seasons fic and I don't know where you are yet in it (I admit I've read Origins but have sort of cherry-picked the remainder and am woefully behind.) So I don't know to what extent she addresses that but I know she goes into the bond between them to bring S1 more in line with S2 and after.

Aside from that moment in the Bronze with Buffy, he seems so - harmless? Stuffy, yes; terribly pleased with himself in The Witch and almost excited because it's the "first time" he's cast a spell as he says outloud. (which reminds me of Tara in Bargaining "Thanks. It's my first axing.") And I really think that the series is playing that depiction straight. I've read people say that Joss planned the "Ripper" arc from the beginning (or maybe it's being confused with the Dark Willow arc?)

Except I'm not convinced based on what I see. The Giles in S1 doesn't suggest someone who has himself dabbled in the dark arts; he seems rather befuddled a lot of the time. I'm not seeing a "mask" the way we clearly see it with Buffy and Angel (WTTH when Buffy backs away from the Vampyr book. It's underplayed that season but there is something else beside the sunny girlish surface.)

I could be wrong - Joss supposedly decide to take the show in a darker direction in part because of Sarah's gift with drama and tragedy. You can still see them struggling with the balance in Inca Mummy Girl, Bad Eggs etc which have a very S1 feel, but thank goodness they took their cues from Prophecy Girl, the show's first masterpiece episode, an episode that really shows how the bond between Giles and Buffy has strengthened and deepened - he is willing to go in her place in that ep, just as Dawn is in The Gift. It's not just about duty anymore; it's the first time we really see that he has "a father's love for the child". (It's ironic then how the library scenes in PG and Helpless parallel and contrast each other.)

But I just can't read Giles in S1 as having a dark past - or rather, it was something Joss/ME may still have been making up their mind about and hadn't committed to, just as they hadn't yet committed tonally overall. (You see this in the movie version - the best, most memorable scene is a somewhat sexualized dream sequence; the comedy is mostly forgettable.)

I was being cute with the watching again comment because I'm doing it for my story! I've gone through all that bonedry101 has posted, which is through Teacher's Pet. The main difference I noticed is that she shows us scenes we don't see on the tv show: Buffy packing the stake that Xander later finds; Buffy finding and killing the eggs in the closet of the science classroom. I loved how Origins explains why Buffy has rejected her Slayer calling; I'm using that as a basis for her mindset in my story. It'll be more implicit than explicit.

He does seem harmless at the start of S1. His speech is somewhat affected and he is very geeky about occult happenings. I never thought of that in terms of his Ripper persona, but you're right, it doesn't really gibe.

One thing I have noticed, watching S1 and S7 (yes, I finally broke down and bought a copy) is that there is a parallel between Mrs. Madison, "paralyzed" inside the statue and Willow paralyzed by the really creepy and gross thing that ate some of her skin. I don't know if it means anything of if Joss just likes paralyzing people though.

It's been awfully long since I saw the movie. I don't recall the dream sequence. I do recall the comedy being pretty bad, especially that one vamp who took forever to die (I think it might have been during the credits?)

I loved how Origins explains why Buffy has rejected her Slayer calling; I'm using that as a basis for her mindset in my story. It'll be more implicit than explicit.

One fanwork riffing off another fanwork? Pure catnip to this fangirl. And that's one of the things I love about it as well. I mean it's there in the text of S1- you really do not have to squint to see it, but somehow it gets - forgotten in fandom? the emphasis is either on "S1 sucked" / "the early years were the best" / or the 'shipping. Buffy herself kind of gets lost in all of that.

He does seem harmless at the start of S1.

And in fact it's emphasized repeatedly for comedic effect in S1 - except for scenes like on the balcony at the Bronze in WTTH, which is either 1) the writers did have darker Giles in mind and were playing with it a little, feeling it out the way they were pretty much feeling out "tone" throughout S1; or it was meant to fool the audience, as with Angel and Buffy herself - nothing is as it seems.

But overall Giles seemed like an older male version of Willow in many respects. Or oddly enough, Xander - his geekiness happens to do with ancient texts rather than comic books. If anything, Xander's darkness (the Hyena, etc) is in the text of S1 in ways Giles' isn't yet, at least not onscreen.

BTW, I have no problem saying sometimes "you know what? these two things don't really mesh - sometimes writers just change their mind. It's series tv - you may have to change a major element days before or even into the shooting of an episode." Everything doesn't have to "gel".

I don't know if it means anything of if Joss just likes paralyzing people though.

Well, local max wrote a meta on Witch, Willow and Mommy Issues and what you said makes sense in light of his meta, but I think it's just another "thing" they like to use. Bodily violations, loss of control, consent and automomy runs throughout the series, sometimes addressed seriously and sometimes played for laughs. the problem is when it becomes a trope that's pulled out "whenever" and without regard for what is being implied.

In the same episode Dawn is paralyzed and it's played as a joke but I find it as horrifying as Catherine being imprisoned at the end of Witch (and I just left a review for Catherine was Great, ironically). But when I saw the "Dawn turned into a giant/centaur/whatever" story, my mind went right back to STSP and Dawn being posed as a doll by the other Scoobies. It's actually not funny at all - but it's a reminder that everything in the comics can in fact be traced back to the series in some way.

especially that one vamp who took forever to die (I think it might have been during the credits?)

That was Paul Reubens ("Pee Wee Herman"); I think that must have been an outtake that was tacked on, god knows why. (Nowadays they can at least save that stuff for the DVD extras.)
I tried to find the dream sequence but couldn't - here's the original trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuL7oJA66XI
It's interesting that the trailer's VO is Pike's, putting her in the position "romantic object"; and I'd forgotten until I read Origins that the movie ends with her dancing with Pike. I'm glad bonedry too him out of her story.

Catherine trapped in the trophy = Buffy waking up in her coffin.

Do you think a young Joss got really wigged out by Poe? The Cask of Amontillado is an amazing story! ;-)

Do you think a young Joss got really wigged out by Poe?

Oh could be! Even at their "campiest" the early seasons have a very gothic quality to them to contrast with the "normality" of Sunnydale - the Master, Spike and Dru; but also the treatment of female sexuality as we've talked about before; there's something very "victorian" about Joss' sensibilities.

I know I've read that story but it's been a while, so I'll have to re-read it.

I was listening to a somewhat modernized version of W.W. Jacobs' The Monkey's Paw on the radio during a Halloween program and realized that the plot of Forever and esp the last scene is directly stolen from it.
http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/mnkyspaw.htm

I totally thought of "THe MOnkey's Paw" when I saw that episode. ;-)

I seem to recall from Joss commentary on the episode that he kept telling the actors that Giles shouldn't get that close to Buffy but then it ended up with Giles too close anyway. If that's true would that mean Joss wasn't behind the camera for that scene? That seems somewhat unlikely. The Bronze is a pivotal scene.

I love the idea that Giles is another version of Xander. ;-) I know Strazynski (Babylon 5) said that all of his characters were aspects of himself. So Giles, Xander, Andrew, yeah, all geeky but in slightly different ways. But then can we explain Spike and Angelus that way? Joss as a bad boy? *grin* However when I write darker fic I can relate sometimes as aggressor and others as victim.

Everything doesn't have to "gel". One of the nicer things about writing a novel is that I know it's going to take multiple edits so I'll have time to fix things later down the road. And I've never thought about that. Even if not everything gels at the start, anyone who's in charge of a tv series has to really have their shit together right from the start.

I just read a story where the BuffyBot becomes self aware (rec'd through the BtVS Top 5) and one of her big issues is protecting herself in case Willow decides to turn her off. Someone else made the fascinating comment that the BuffyBot stands in for all Slayers (pre-Buffy): assembly line production, easily replaced, not really human - okay or perhaps the Council's view of them.

I recently watched S7. I was sort of wigged by the posing Dawn bit. I knew it was supposed to be funny but I thought it was more on the icky side.

I'd forgotten that was the actor who played Pee Wee! But Donald Sutherland *squee!!!* Although I've definitely seen Rutger Hauer look better. It's been ages since I've seen the movie. My story isn't going in that direction, but we do get a glimpse of the rebel Giles phase! ;-)

he kept telling the actors that Giles shouldn't get that close to Buffy

I've also heard that he was so freaked out by the love scene he directed (flashbacks for Innocence) that he never directed another one in the series after that. Like I said in the reply I just sent you - he's got some very strange, very victorian sensibilities when it comes to (female) sexuality. Buffy ending the series as a "spiritual virgin", cleansed via flamey handfasting ('cause sex is just icky or something - and it gets you killed. Ask Tara! *end sarcasm*) I'm exaggerating for effect but not by much. Only someone who is uncomfortable with the female body and sexuality could think that the space fuck was funny. That attitude is already in the series despite Joss' belief in his own feminism.

And I have no idea who was behind the camera in the Bronze scene; it could be that it was a second-unit direct or that day? I also keep in mind that commentaries are after the fact - often long after the fact.

But then can we explain Spike and Angelus that way? Joss as a bad boy?

Oh we could go on all day about the similarities characters share!

blackfrancine wrote a meta that Xander is meant to parallel Angel in S1-2, which seems obvious; he's the nerd boy and Angel is the stud who got the girls while he was waiting on the sidelines. (Although note? - that stereotype is OLD.) OTOH I can make a lot of parallels between xander and spike; they also share a lot of characteristics in common. (Watch him and Cordy in the early seasons - in Anne, for instance; their dynamic is "proto-Spuffy" .) Or Spiral or TWoTW; they come off as brothers who claim to hate one another but there's a foundation beneath that neither one will admit to. Very different from Xander and Angel.

infinitewhale pointed out to me that Spike and Andrew are similar in their romanticism, and the wa they uses 'stories' to shape their self-image and worldview, and try to control how others perceive them.

I think maybe Angel and Spike were meant to be the bad boys in relation to the Joss avatar Xander, but both became more interesting or rather Joss, David, Marti etc became more interested in Angel and Spike than they'd intended.

Is that Buffybot story mabus101's that I mentioned to you? Because it sounds similar - and in terms of what the Buffybot represents re: assembly line, those are my comments. I should give credit to

lanoyee for reminding me of that parallel.

I thought it was more on the icky side.

As is The Hyena, Xander admitting that he remembers almost raping Buffy while under the spell and laughing about it with Giles; Bewitched, Bothered and bewildered (Buffy thanks him for not talking advantage of her - while she was affected by a spell he accidentally put on her and all the women of SD); Him (although I do find that ep funny despite the wonkiness so sue me); and on and on. Someone did a meta a few years back of all the instances of violation and wonky consent (dub-con,rape played for laughs or handwaved away) during the series, which I've lost the link to, and it was pretty sobering.

But Donald Sutherland *squee!!!*

Joss hated him and I've heard he's not the only person to dislike Sutherland but he's one of my favorite actors. His performance in Ordinary People was amazing because it's so quiet, without any of the fireworks that are being pitched around him by the other characters. Whenever he's in a movie he's often my favorite element - including the video of Kate bush's "cloudbusting":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K69hEnLpSY8

and YES to a glimpse of Ripper! ;)

I'm not sure how the "flamey handfasting" is supposed to make Buffy into a spiritual virgin? I would have said it was about connection. What's she supposed to do, say "thanks for dying for me" and just run off?

Sex gets you killed: okay I don't recall if she was around or not but wouldn't killing Anya be a better example of that, given how outspoken she is? Also, Tara is the character, outside of the core four, who's death would most upset viewers. Although maybe Dawn's death would have been just as upsetting. But Tara's death also sends Willow down that evil spiral, which we knew he wanted to take her on.

I don't know what the space fuck means. And I'm not trying to dis your hypothesis, I just don't see it.

I read Byron in an English class and Angel is a Byronic hero, to the T. I always though Xander represented Joss, with his inability to get the girl and all.

I believe Spike was meant to be a throwaway character but I thought Angel was always meant to be a main character? Or do you mean "interested in" as in giving more interesting plot points to?

Oops and can't finish this now. Gotta run. ttfn - ta ta for now.

I haven't seen that "cloudbursting" vid in ages. Thanks for reminding me of it.

You're welcome! (And I'll certainly reply to your other queries when I have time -final push on this insurance inventory.)

No rush. I should be at least trying to focus on NaNoWriMo this month. ;-)

And also on this, when they get to the Bronze in the second episode, The Harvest? Ripper would have totally been able to pick a lock. They should have been through that door in under a minute, probably less. (I don't know how long it actually takes to pick a lock but I'm thinking someone good at it can probably get a door open faster than I can with my keys!)

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Spike, Faith, denial, and aggression

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