dragonyphoenix

*laughs* Thanks. I sort of thought you'd enjoy this one.

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I haven't seen Harvest but I like your use of this to prove the point of her later downfall. :D

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The Harvest? You haven't seen The Harvest? It's the second episode. Sorry but that just seems weird to me since it's the latter seasons that I'm less familiar with.

And, that was fast! You and velvetwhip, both on the ball today.

Yes, it did seem like an indication of the way she would eventually go although I'm not sure Joss planned it that far out.

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I came to BTVS for Spike so I started with S4 to S7. The only eps in S1-S3 I've seen are those Spike featured in. :D

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As I was out walking I was wondering if you'd only seen the Spike episodes. ;-)

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The only eps in S1-S3 I've seen are those Spike featured in.

I thought you'd told me that once before and but I wasn't sure if you'd seen the others yet. I REALLY do recommend you watch the others if you can. If only for the fact that you can see the patterns all the way across the show and the contrasts/parallels in Buffy's relationships between herself and Angel, Faith and Spike really take on a greater richness and depth IMO when you've seen all of it. (I promise!) You can see how "Bangel" and "Spuffy" are complete opposite trajectories and dynamics.

And even if you're not keen on S1, Prophecy Girl is A MUST - the show's first masterpiece episode, and the harbinger of the direction it would take. Unlike other, shallower tv shows that might have forgotten it entirely, S2 picks up with Buffy's trauma from that event. (I'd also add WTTH/The Harvest, Angel, and Nightmares to the list.) And all of the early episodes contain events or images that are referred back to later (Nightmares: Restless, Bargaining; Puppet Show: Restless in Giles' dream. etc) Plus, lots of Xander being funny but also an ass because he can't help himself; Xander and Cordy as proto-Spuffy (check out Anne, another sublime episode), and Gilesian goodness.

Faith's statement to Buffy "If you kill me, you become me" and their entire relationship leads directly to TTG/Who are You in S4, where Faith hands off the role of Buffy's "dark mirror" to Spike; and in turn predicts the entire trajectory of S6.

And you've never watched Graduation Day and seen the part where Buffy lets Angel drink from her neck in order to save him? The way they fall down parallels Smashed (the last time Buffy & Angel "have sex", and the first time Buffy & Spike do):

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And you've never watched Graduation Day and seen the part where Buffy lets Angel drink from her neck in order to save him? The way they fall down parallels Smashed (the last time Buffy & Angel "have sex", and the first time Buffy & Spike do). Huh, I've never noticed that. Interesting.

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Although I will be the first to admit I have not done an all-the-way through rewatch of S1-3.

Oh and have you ever noticed that all three of Buffy's lovers are "injured" in the heart physically (and metaphorically): Angel in S3 (Buffy's sword and Faith's arrow), Riley (the chip) and Spike (the soul.)

I actually do love the parallels a lot but don't talk or write about them because so much of the conversation in fandom already revolves around the men or "Buffy as part of a relationship".

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Missed that as well. I'm pretty much unobservo-girl!

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I've still to get most of the eps in S1-S3 and I'm sure I will one day. Just waiting for the coffers to refill. :D

I would think that the writers of the show would go back to earlier episodes and reuse/continue what has gone before, especially as the show has a theme that underuns it.

Thanks for posting the two screen caps. They are quite similar with one glaring difference. In the Angel/Buffy one the person on top, the position of power, is Angel. In the Spike/Buffy one that person is Buffy. Very symbolic of both relationships I think.

I like your reference to Faith handing off the mirror reflection to Spike. I can see that. I had not really thought about the fact that the show had already highlighted that there is darkness within the Slayer. I guess that really just highlights the 'with power comes great responsibility' idea and that absolute power corrupts.

I think the thing I like about BTVS and this would be Joss' influence, is that the learning is there but it comes with tablespoons of sugar in the humour and ordinary life parts that were always included.

It's ages since I watched an episode at all and I remember it was the humour that really stood out to me.

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And the humour is what I wish I could write! I get it every once in a while, but mostly I'm more serious.

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Oh yes, me too. I'm seem to be wallowing in a particularly angsty pattern at the mo, durn it!

I will just have to laugh at myself more.:D

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ETA: OOPS, I forgot to add video links below; all fixed now.

I would think that the writers of the show would go back to earlier episodes and reuse/continue what has gone before,

Absolutely - part of the reason I love the episode Him (an underloved ep) besides the fact that it makes me laugh is that it is SO rich with callbacks like that, sometimes very subtle ones. I think more actually shows could do that but the writers chose not to? IDK

They are quite similar with one glaring difference. In the Angel/Buffy one the person on top, the position of power, is Angel. In the Spike/Buffy one that person is Buffy. Very symbolic of both relationships I think.

YES! That is exactly the thing I noticed when I first became aware of the parallel. (Buffy is also "beneath" Angel when she makes love to him in Surprise/Innocence. With Riley OTOH she is often depicted as next to him or beside him when they make love.)

I like your reference to Faith handing off the mirror reflection to Spike. I can see that.

brad_cpu's video from 2008, "Creep", influenced me a lot in that regard and really made me start thinking about the subject.
http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/61881.html
Afterthebattle's "Your Power is Rooted in Darkness" is also very good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8CZc6sKb0A

A Slayer's darkness is there in the text from the beginning in WTTH because it opens with another blond dressed as a schoolgirl: Darla. She is depicted as the favorite daughter of the Master, so more parallels (Buffy & Giles) as well as having been Angel's previous lover. But she only lasts a couple of episodes and is killed off in S1. Then you've got Cordy, the person Buffy used to be and a leader of her own "gang"; then Dru and Spike as a parallel couple (and like Dru, Angelus tries to make Buffy another "work of art" in terms of torture etc and succeeds in traumatizing her).

But it's not until Faith, I think, that the "subtext" becomes text.

the learning is there but it comes with tablespoons of sugar in the humour and ordinary life parts that were always included.

"Dress for the ambiguity" *lol* The darkness and wit/humor inform one another, they don't negate each other: The Wish is a dark episode within a humorous frame (beginning and end); Tabula Rasa is just the opposite. The two exist cheek-and-jowl.

Edited Date: 2013-10-08 07:18 pm (UTC)

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I have to admit that I take the reversal of positions as a correlation to Buffy's rising power - she was a young girl when Angel was around. By the time Spike gets to have her, she is a more powerful slayer but she is also an adult who has grown because of her life experiences including being dead. She has lost so much.
It is interesting to me that she does not recognise her displays of power - she asks Tara why she lets him do things to her - when in fact she drives the realtionship, perhaps as a coping mechanism for everyone abondoning her. Perhaps she uses Spike so poorly as a punishment because he stayed when everyone else hasn't which makes her feel worthless.

She is a mixed up cookie and often selfish though she really gets no support from her 'family' after she comes back. She was the strong one, now she is not and they have too much influence over her so she takes her power out on Spike. I think I'm rambling.

The breakup is more selfishness. She tells him she is breaking up with him because 'it's killing me'. I can see why there are so many out there in fandom land, who don;t like her.

I think I kinda relate to her though. S6 and into S7 she is a lesson in how the strong fall. If you are a leader, the strong one, the protector and then you aren't so much because you need a break, you hate yourself for failing. Those on a pedestal are always lonely.

That is a couple of neat vids. I've seen no early seasons Faith to get the correlation with Spike though I can see what you are saying and certainly the flashes in the vids show this.

All in all Buffy is a teenage girl given enormous power and little guidance to use it properly either through her own teenage defiance or the watcher code of treating a slayer as nothing more than a tool. Power is a great corrupter and once you begin down the slippery slope of compromising your beliefs for power you can get completely lost like Faith or sidetracked like Buffy.

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"I'm USING you, and it's killing me" is the full line.

They were in a mutually-abusive relationship; Buffy was becoming the thing she had been terrified of becoming since nightmares in S1 - a demon, and not just a literal demon, but someone like Faith who ceases to care and loses their way. When Tara says "It's ok if you love him and it's ok if you don't" her response is "How is that ok?" She's horrified with her own behavior, but she is taking her self-hate out on him. And, demon here, he encourages it because he can't help but do so.

It's an unhealthy relationship and she knows it; in S4-5 she'd had the strength of will to push him away; in S6 she doesn't. He abandoned the position of friendship they'd begun to establish when he pressed for more from her, which was the worst thing he could have done at that time; and she did the worst thing she could have done which was, give in. By going down to "the dark with me" she was abandoning her values and sense of self, and dragging him down with her. "Giving in" to him was not what inspired his acts of heroism in S5, being an example to him was. A lonely vampire and a mentally-ill Slayer do not a good relationship make.

Someone had to end it, and it wasn't going to be him. Just as Tara had to walk away from Willow and draw the line in the sand.

I suspect the word "selfishness" is being used as a criticism here but sometimes it's necessary to be "selfish".

I have been with my lover for 17 years and a day doesn't go by when I don't wonder, is it more selfish of me to be with her in a relationship that's not entirely healthy and continue to hurt her; or is it worse to leave? So I feel a lot of sympathy and compassion for all four of these wounded souls even if I don't approve of their behaviors. They're doing the best they can and making it up as they go along.

And this is probably my love of Buffy speaking, but I can watch S6 and dislike things that go on, on either side, and watch Spike do awful things and dislike them but I don't hate him - and given how much I love that character I would be perfectly justified in doing so. But I don't. I don't hate Willow, as much as I love Tara. I can still understand.

I honestly don't have time any more for Buffy-hate.

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"I'm USING you, and it's killing me" is the full line.

Yes exactly and she is breaking up with him for herself. She is supposed to be the better person here - ensouled and all- whereas she believes he is a monster and cannot love therefore he is simply acting on his nature and of course he is, a fact he only realises after he gets his soul and tells us about his epiphany in S7. Their whole relationship in S6 and perhaps before, is the arc of Spike getting his soul. It is already canon in the Buffy verse that a vampire can only truly be a better 'man' with a soul. This is carried on in S5 with Harmony who is not a very good vampire but never the less is looked down upon by both Angel and Spike and expected to betray them because she has not got the moral compass of a soul.

The problem with labelling Buffy the bad person in S6 because she is ensouled, and therefore supposed to be the better person, she is the stronger partner, she is the initiator of the relationship, she continues to go to Spike, says no but does it anyway - all good reasons to say bad Buffy - is that the poor girl got pulled out of heaven and none of her friends are there to support her and her father figure racks off back to England.

I missed all the Buffy hate arguments, having come late to the fandom. Actually I've missed all the arguments, thank goodness, because it sounds like people got a bit carried away with their opinions on what is a tv show and a bunch of fiction. I rather like discussing the show, as we do, because it is an interesting exercise in discussing some aspects of human nature. I've learnt a bit along the way and our conversations have stirred my largely dormant brain. I signed up for some online uni courses partly because I think I wanted the discourse that would go with such classes but unfortunately it really hasn't happened. Online discussions just don't seem to get off the ground.

I've been married for 27 and half years now. There are loads of days I'd like to push hubby off the balcony and run away. Relationships are constant work and sometimes it's hard, especially because we are all learning to live with ourselves as well. Honestly tv has a lot to answer for giving us shows like the Brady Bunch cos such families don't exist really. I fight with my brothers and would like to smack my sister but I would kill for them if I had to because they are my brothers and sisters. Families are all different and all weird I think. But they are what we got.

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baudown.livejournal.com

Nice.

I don't know how much of Willow's arc was planned in advance (although of course I've read that Joss envisioned Dark!Willow early on). But I do remember seeing that scene for the first time and thinking, huh, there's more here than meets the eye.

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I haven't read much of the conversation about the show so I didn't know he was planning on taking her in the dark!Willow direction but I can see it.

A friend of mine lent me the whole series, season by season, after my Mom passed away so I wasn't thinking a whole lot the first time I saw it.

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I hadn't been spoiled in any way when I first started watching it last year except for the fact of Tara's death (which still hurts like hell anyway), something about a musical episode, and I'd read that Buffy's mom and Anya would also die at some point. (So I basically spent all of S1-2 thinking "Ok THIS is the ep where Joyce dies." Especially with Angelus about can you imagine? I thought Joss was really going to go for the big hurt with that.)

About Willow though I had no idea whatsoever, but that is one of the things I love about the show, how those small things take on big significance in hindsight.

And I think that's why everyone who is a fan of the should should watch it from the beginning at least once, to see how all the pieces fall in place over time.

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I'd actually seen bits and pieces before my friend lent me the DVDs. Buffy and Angel were on tv here, as reruns, for the better part of a year that I caught. There were two episodes of Buffy and one of
Angel (all unrelated seasons) per week. I remember Joyce's comment about it being a good think that Buffy was an only child and wondering about it because it seemed an odd thing to have the character say out of the blue. ;-)

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BTW, I've read (and please keep in mind that I've read this stuff so it's really hearsay) that Joss had planned Willow's arc very early on - he based Willow/Dark Willow and Xander in part off of X-men characters Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix and her best friend (Scott?).Willow's darkness was supposed to occur in S4 and Seth Green was meant to be killed off that season but he decided to leave the show and they had to adjust. Then Amber Benson was only supposed to last a few episodes but then Willow and Tara became tremendously popular. DUH. This would ONLY come as a surprise to straight people who didn't realize that back in the '90's lesbians of all ages thirsted for any representations of themselves in tv or movies they could find.

I'm not familiar with the X-men comics so I wouldn't have known about the Dark Willow/Dark Phoenix parallel without reading that.

He had also toyed with either Xander or Willow becoming gay from the beginning from what I've read (I think it was Dopplegangers that sealed the deal.)

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baudown also told me Joss had Willow's dark arc planned early on. I know only a little of X-men but yes, Dark Phoenix would definitely work as a parallel there.

I had read that he wasn't sure if it should be Xander or Willow who had the gay arc. I could so see Dopplegangers sealing that deal.

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Re: Xander I can see him playing with that in the scene in which Larry comes out. (Larry was definitely an underused character - and of the three openly gay characters on the show, two of them end up dead. Just sayin'.)

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I do very much wish he hadn't killed Tara. ;-(

I heard, secondhand, that some people thought he killed off Tara as a way of saying being gay is wrong. That seems unlikely to me. It's not as if he had to put in gay characters; he chose to. But I hadn't noticed that two of three had been killed off. Perhaps I'm too used to fanfiction where any character can be gay.

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I heard, secondhand, that some people thought he killed off Tara as a way of saying being gay is wrong.

That I don't believe at all, for all of Joss' sometime jackassery, although the writers clearly were not aware of a great many cultural tropes when it came to the depiction of lesbians in Western culture for the last 500 years. (A perusal of Lillian Faderman's "Surpassing the Love of Men" would have been a very good idea. A little education goes a long way.)

As I've heard, he announced that Willow had "always" been gay because he was pissed off at the homophobia of some of the show's fans, who reacted very negatively to W/T. Which is a bit foolish and probably an overreaction but that's Joss' pattern, to overreact. And also - bisexuality, hello? But in a way I don't blame him on that count because I don't think "bisexuality" was really on most straight people's radar; our culture prefers opposites and binaries. Hell, when I was first coming out in the '90's a lot of gays and lesbians saw bisexuals (esp women) as "fence sitters" "unable to make up their minds" and even "traitors". Nowadays I think we recognize a wider spectrum of sexual expression and orientation than just those three labels.

And most lesbians I've known have been with men and even married at some point, mostly because it was culturally expected and there were no other options, or they didn't realize it was an option until much later. I'd call myself 100% lesbian but in college I was attracted to and even flirted with a handful of men (at least two of whom were gay anyway. so hah.)

Conversely I came across a Willow fansite that said right on the homepage that Willow was bisexual and no other label would be accepted or tolerated; and I can't go with that either. Willow's comments to Kennedy in TKIM are ambiguous and can be read either way, and I can read her as "either way" as well. That's why I have no problem whatsoever with people who ship Willow with male characters:

velvetwhip writes Willow/Angel(us);

snogged pairs her with Spike. And Aly had a lot of chemistry with both of them, there's suggestions of attraction in canon, and I really thought she was going to end up with Riley in S4 because of the chemistry.

I can't bring myself to read fics that ship Tara with any male character, in the show or crossover however, because I read Tara as lesbian, full-stop, and there are SO FEW unambiguously, well-rounded lesbian characters in our culture that I have an irrational response to that: Straight people have tons of characters to play with (and whose canon sexuality is straight) and I have very few - I have this one character so please give her back to me, thank you very much

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I don't believe it either. I figured it was homophobes being jerks.

"Surpassing the Love of Men". Oh come on. Like I need another book to read. Do you know how big my pile of unread books is? ;-)

I've heard that people reacted negatively to W/T and I honestly just don't get it. Granted I didn't watch the show until well after 2000 so I suppose homosexuality was more accepted by then, but I don't recall ever being prejudiced about that. I don't recall being exposed to the idea in high-school. (I was unbelievably introvertd and naive.) In college I had one friend whos mother was a lesbian and in an open relationship and another, Kat, who has never been in the closet (she didn't realize until she was at an all women's college) and whom I'm still in touch with. Uh, where was I going with this? Oh, yeah, I don't get the upset over W/T, especially given how adorable and awesome Tara is.

Given that Willow has dated both genders and also given the huge crush she had on Xander early on, I'd go both ways with her although she has dated only women since Tara as far as I recall.

I'm more celibate than anything else. In part I'm still introverted but in part my introversion was made worse by an unrecognized illness. I had anaemia building up over probably a decade. It's under control now but there was a time where I felt I could barely get through my day-to-day life much less handle anything else. So I haven't dated in quite a while, but when I did it was guys. Every once in a while I've been attracted to women so I could go either way. I sometimes wonder if I'm more attracted to men because that's what society expects of me.

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I figured it was homophobes being jerks.

And what's the distinction, boys and girls?

"Not all jerks are homophobes, but all homophobes are jerks."

Very good, class. Remember that for the test on Friday. *lol*

And I've just discovered that a house fire is a very very efficient way to burn through that pile of unread books (pun completely intended) AND have a reasonable excuse re: why you haven't read them. Gotta look for the silver lining somewhere.

The other book I meant to mention btw was Vito Russo's The Celluloid Closet (which was later adapted into a documentary), which is focused entirely on the depictions of homosexuality in the media (mostly film) from the beginnings of cinema around 1900. Either one of those books are classics; Russo's is the quicker read of the two.

Oh, yeah, I don't get the upset over W/T, especially given how adorable and awesome Tara is.

And back to square one: It had nothing to do with Tara as a person/character, and everything to do with those people's prejudices. Joss' pronouncement re: Willow was in response to the remarks from fandom.

And it is better nowadays certainly, but as a lesbian in the US I cannot marry my partner and thus am NOT a full citizen. Gays are still tortured and killed and imprisoned all over the world. People like Fred Phelps still spew hatred. The notion of two people of the same gender getting legally married still scares the hell out of a lot of people.

And ten years after Chosen, I know of no other lesbian couple (or two characters in a relationship who happen to be women, however you want to say it) in US television. We're still rare birds. Media, as always, is still woefully behind the times because there are advertisers to please and everyone wants to remain "safe" even when they want to believe they're not prejudiced. (Newsflash: we all are.)

she has dated only women since Tara as far as I recall.

Yes, exactly. And you're right about the crush on Xander; I recently rewatched a couple of S1 & S2 episodes and watching him going on and on about wanting to date Buffy while his friend is glancing up at him with such hopeful longing is really painful to watch. And having feelings for someone who is a man, or being in a relationship with a man, then with a woman, are not mutually-exclusive things. I think we're getting past that thinking? I just did the users poll for AO3 (Archive of our Own) and it asked about gender and orientation in two separate questions and it wasn't just two choices, either/or - it was at least five for each. Delightful.

I'm more celibate than anything else. In part I'm still introverted but in part my introversion was made worse by an unrecognized illness....there was a time where I felt I could barely get through my day-to-day life much less handle anything else.

Are you me? *lol* Srsly, you have no idea how much I identify with how you've described yourself. I was incapacitated by Lupus in my late teens -early twenties (on top of epilepsy); when you've got physical and mental illnesses and conditions that sap your energy, then just surviving from one day to the next is the major goal and anything else is too hard to deal with. I really didn't date seriously until my mid-twenties when I met my sweetie. Which I guess is the equivalent of marrying your high school sweetheart - basically, first person I fell in love with.) So I was 25 when I first made love to someone - and thought that I was a freak. There wasn't internet at the time so I thought it was "just me."

And perfectly intelligent people would ask me "how do you know you're a lesbian if you've never been with a woman?" My response was "How did you know you were straight before you were with someone? Did you try all flavors and then settle on one?" I wish in a way I'd dated more, had more fun, but I didn't want to lose my virginity unless it "meant something" or was with someone I wanted to "be with"; my mom had been married three times so I was actually rather prudish about that. Or friends would suggest I go on "practice dates" and I said "I'd rather read a book." *lol*

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I sometimes wonder if I'm more attracted to men because that's what society expects of me.

That's the million-dollar question. I mean, it's entirely possible that you're following your mind/heart and you really do prefer men, and attractions to people who happen to be women doesn't negate that. Our society pushes the either/or binary so we forget or don't realize that there are other options along the spectrum. I am one of those people who tends to think that more people would express themselves as "bisexual" if our society were more accepting of that. I don't know that "everyone" is; my mother asked if I was a lesbian when I was 13 (and if I hadn't known what a "closet" was before, I did then, because I didn't come out until I was 23.) I was attracted to men but when I fell in love with another woman in college it was just - BAM - I'm home, this is right, this is me.

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That's what I was wondering, would I fit somewhere else on the spectrum if I'd grown up in a more accepting society. That's nice that you found someone. I'm not there, yet at least. Hopeful though.

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1) There is absolutely no hurry on finding someone.

2) Not all of us are "meant to" be partnered up. Humans are pack animals, we need other people, but the idea that we have to BE with someone is yet another lie society tells us. (Which is very very invested in the notion of men and women partnering up and making babies - lots and lots of cogs in the wheel and cannon fodder.)

I've known quite a few people who live alone and are very content with their lives.

3) I've been with my sweetie 17 years and not a day goes by when I don't wonder, Should I stay? Should I go? Was I wrong to stay? etc etc And there are absolutely no answers for that. I love her deeply and I hate her terribly and the two walk hand-in-hand with each other absolutely.

Love is not a Hallmark card. (alas)

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I didn't mean to suggest I was about to rush into anything. ;-)

I am actually happy by myself. I mean I think I'd like another cat around because they are awesome company although they can be a bit on the bossy side. But I don't tend to go for sex outside of a committed relationship and the celibacy thing is getting old. Or maybe that should read the self-pleasuring thing. Whatever.

But you're right. I have next to no experience with the negative aspects of an intimate relationship.

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I didn't mean to suggest I was about to rush into anything.

Oh I didn't think that, I'm just really good at throwing out unsolicited advice which I may or may not follow myself. A gal's gotta play to her strengths, right?

I have noticed that I've spoken to a lot of young women who are in their mid-twenties and wondering, as I did at that age, if they were weird or freakish because they hadn't been with someone etc and the answer is a resounding NO YOU'RE NOT.

And self-pleasuring is TOTALLY of the good! When I was first starting college I had a class on human - psychology 101? and there was a section on human sexuality and it mentioned a little bit about anatomy; there were words like "labia" and "vulva" I had never heard in my life. I had those things? I went to my professor and I was REALLY embarrassed but I pointed to the book and said "What are those things." He was perhaps 70-something, a very "grizzled" and often sarcastic person, but he just quietly pulled a book off his shelf and said "Return it when you're done with it."

It was an original copy of "For Yourself: Fulfillment of Female Sexuality" by Lonnie Barbach, Ph.D.
http://www.lonniebarbach.com/books.html
Basically it was a book about orgasm and masturbation based on workshops she'd conducted with women of all ages who had never had an orgasm. (including married women.) I think it was written decades ago when the idea of women totally focused on the pleasure of their male partners was still pervasive. It was, um, eye-opening, to say the least. (And embarrassing when my mom found it hidden in my room, although it seems funny in hindsight.)

So basically, I'm a fan.

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Well, for me self-pleasuring has slipped more towards "I'm not going to be able to sleep unless I release some tension with an orgasm so let's get this done."

However, I have been playing with energy orgasms lately, which seems like it could help me get out of that rut.

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Oh yeah it's easy to get into a rut with it, or sort of get addicted to it. It can become almost rote. (then I go through loooong stretches where I don't even think about it. Like since we moved into this apartment after this fire. Not really on the agenda. Bodily pain and depression DO NOT HELP.)

I have been playing with energy orgasms lately, which seems like it could help me get out of that rut.

*runs off to google" Never heard that term before, huh. I used to be very interested in energy healing and the like. Aren't all orgasms essentially a form of energy, of calling up energy?

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Annie Sprinkle has a good description of energy orgasms (http://anniesprinkle.org/energy-orgasms/). Basically it's some body movements while moving energy through your chakras. I'm in the middle of "try something new for 30 days" and about 20-ish days in I'm starting to keep focus well enough for the fun to have stepped up a notch.

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I just bookmarked that thanks! I'm aware of visualization in the general sense and *ahem TMI ALERT* have um, "visualized" myself into a near-state of orgasm. but never in any sort of systematic way like this. Intriguing...

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Geez, even when I'm trying it doesn't work that well for me, although I am getting better at it. ;-)

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As with anything, practice, practice, practice...

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;-)

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Most of the books I have piled up to read are library books, which means a house fire would be a terrible way to get rid of them. Although, really, I think burnt books is a bad idea no matter which way you look at it. Still I can see how it would clear out the responsibility.

Vito Russo's The Celluloid Closet: Neither of my libraries has this one. Hmmm, but I have been thinking of a research trip to LoC. There's stuff I want to look up for a fanfic.

everything to do with those people's prejudices: and for me, not sharing those prejudices, I'm wondering why they care. I don't know why this is, but the way I look at the world seems to have some unusual "default" settings. I put "default" in quotes because I know they're not default, that my life experiences have made them that way, but I honestly don't get why I'm so different / wierd / etc.

While I know things are bad, I tend to see improvements. For example, becxause my family members tend to be pretty Christian, I expected them to be homophobes, but a number of them have expressed pro-homosexuality sentiments on Facebook. Note: my friend Charlie is gay and Christian (as well as Pagan but that's another story), so I know there are churches that are accepting. I just figured my niece's midwest brand of Christianity would be intolerant.

I had totally not noticed there was no other lesbian couple in mainstream tv. That's pretty awful. Yeah, we all have our prejudices. I've thought about that sometimes. Growing up in the U. S., I'd have to be pretty exceptional to not be prejudiced. Sadly, so not exceptional.

I had anaemia caused by a fibroid on my uterus which makes my periods unbelievably heavy. It wasn't caught because I have a needle phobia and never went to a doctor's office if I could help it.

When I was in college I decided I was too old to be a virgin and slept with some randomish guy. I don't even remember his name. Sort of wish I hadn't made that call. On the other hand, wasting almost thirty years of my life at a job I could barely stand seems much worse. The crappy career choice makes me wish I could ask for a re-do.

And perfectly intelligent people would ask me "how do you know you're a lesbian if you've never been with a woman?" I'm sort of snickering over that one, largely because I find it difficult to believe. I mean, I do believe it, but wow. I just assume other people know thier own minds. Although I do recall one moment of disbelief. A friend of mine, one I knew was an atheist, made some comment about atheism and it really hit me. I remember thinking What, you don't believe in anything? For some reason it was quite a shock. And I was surprised to learn I was prejudiced over that.

I'm not even sure what a "practice date" would be. My mom dated married men, which pretty much means I will never get involved with anyone who is married. I see someone who's married, I'm not even interested. My Dad was strongly influenced by the "being open about your sexuality" ideas of the 70's. His ideas of what you can talk about with or in front of your kids is so not the norm for the U.S. (although he'd fit in pretty well in some parts of Europe). That's left me pretty prudish about sexuality.

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Does your library have an interlibrary loan service? the one in my state is pretty good. You may also find those books used and cheap online.

LoC=library of congress? I've never been there, what sorts of things do you plan on researching there?

I like your default settings very much btw. There's a song in the musical "South Pacific", also in the movie version. "You Have to Be Carefully Taught" in which an American sailor explains how racism is handed down from one generation to the next. In the end it's about ignorance.

NOt all branches of Christianity teach intolerance, and not all Christians practice it. It's the ones who scream the loudest who give Christianity a bad name. There are also Christian churches like Metropolitan Community Church which was founded by a gay pastor (mostly in the southern US) and Unitarian Universalist which has mostly practiced acceptance in it's mission statement.

My sweetie's sister and brother-in-law are conservative Christians in Tennessee but her sister loves my sweetie and the first time I met her she hugged me; she's always wonderful to me when we visit, bakes a pound cake she knows I love, and treats me like Judy's partner even if she tends to use the word "friend" . Actions speak volumes. How she votes on issues that might come up I don't know.

when I lived in North Carolina a lot more interracial couples than I ever saw growing up in Michigan. the detroit area is one of the most segregated in the country. It's strange in the south a lot of people are publicly racist but have very close interactions with people of other races; in the North we claim to be less racist but in some areas are extremely segregated.

On the other hand, wasting almost thirty years of my life at a job I could barely stand seems much worse. The crappy career choice makes me wish I could ask for a re-do.

Oh I had such plans and high hopes for myself that never panned out: bad planning on my part and not trying hard enough, lack of finances, poor health, epilepsy, all have a little bit to do with it, but financially and career-wise I'm no better off than I was 20 years ago. At least now I have a partner who is the breadwinner (but I was while she went to school ten years ago) and I've become a "housewife" but it's definitely not what I'd ever imagined I'd become. Unemployment has been extremely frustrating. I wish so many times I could do things over again but as my former therapist told me, you might have done everything different and ended up in the same place, there are no guarantees.

I remember thinking What, you don't believe in anything? For some reason it was quite a shock.

That one I never had a problem with, I've been all over the place in terms of "belief system" (settled on atheism for the moment); but I had much the same reaction to my best friend's Christianity. "What you're Christian and you're not racist and homophobic?" I had a hard time reconciling those.

I will never get involved with anyone who is married. I see someone who's married, I'm not even interested.

That was definitely on my no-no list, especially after I received my first kiss from a married bisexual woman. I was not able to see her after that and we'd had what I thought was a nice friendship up to that point. I had NO idea that in fact she might have seen it as dating. I have known quite a few lesbians having affairs with married women (which means women who can't/won't come out themselves), and I've known some of those married lesbians, some keeping it in hiding and others claiming their husbands are "all right" with it. (until they aren't anymore.) IT NEVER ENDS WELL. someone WILL be hurt, and dragging out the relationship just drags out the inevitable and it hurts like hell anyway.

Your dad was one of those "free love" types? Huh. My mom was married three times, widowed once, divorced twice (my stepfathers were alcoholics.) Ergo I told myself I would NEVER make love to someone unless I loved them, preferably the person I "meant to be with", and I would have a long-term relationship and not get divorced. Well, my partner and I have been together 17 years, but staying together is not a virtue in it's own right; there's no reward or prize.

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Oh yeah, definitely have interlibrary loan although I haven't used it in a while. In addition to my county, I'm close to another county, with an exceelent library system. Between the two of them I tend to be able to find most of the books and movies I'm looking for.

Yep. Library of Congress. It's been so long since I've looked at books there that I'll have to get my card updated. Just as well though since I think they may have my old address. For my BtVS story I might want Giles being in a BDSM and sex magick kind of a place (in a negative and manipulative way since he's evil) but those aren't topics I have a lot of direct experience with. It would be with adults in the story (Jenny and possibly Ethan) and not any of the Scoobies. The research might be doable online though.

Yeah, I recall that song from South Pacific. I saw that sometime in the last year. I mean, not for the first time but again. Good movie.

It's the ones who scream the loudest who give Christianity a bad name. Which would be why I expect all of them to be prejudiced.

The description of visits with your sweetie's family reminds me of the song "The Christians and the Pagans", where the Christian parents are happy to see the couple but still a tad uncomfortable. I enjoy the song but there are a couple of lines in there that are heavier on the ... not quite Christian bashing but definitely taking a jab at them, than I'd like.

Both my parents are from Michigan - Plymouth - and my sister moved back there as an adult. Some years back, after a bunch of us had gotten together, my aunt and her two foreign exchange students were harrassed in a fast food place up near my sister's neck of the woods. Aunt Kate sent out an e-mail about it and Jackie is still seriously pissed over that. She thinks aunt Kate was criticizing her for liivng in a racist neighborhood. Even in Jackie's old neighborhood, which was more urban, I remember wondering if she had any "non-white" neighbors. She said she did, but I never saw them.

I had NO idea that in fact she might have seen it as dating. Now this I can relate to but from another angle. I'll be talking to a guy, just shooting the breeze as far as I'm concerned, and he'll suddenly feel the need to tell me he's married and/or in a relationship. I guess they think I'm hitting on them but I have no idea where they're getting that idea from.

Your dad was one of those "free love" types? Intellectually, yes. In practice, I don't know but I doubt it. His boundary of what he thinks is appropriate to talk about is different from mine. Dad thinks he's right and if the rest of the world disagrees, they're wrong so he'll pretty much blurt out whatever he wants to, even if he knows it'll disturb me. I do agree that being open and sharing is a good thing, but there are some things I just don't want to hear my Dad saying. My therapist is helping me learn to set boundaries. If I mention extra stress, it's because Dad might be wanting to visit for Thanksgiving.

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devo79.livejournal.com

And Evil!Willow was born... only to grow stronger.

Well written.

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*laughs* Yep! Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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thenniel.livejournal.com

Yay Willow! I grew to love Cordelia but she did deserve some payback for the way she treated Willow in season one.

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