Giles as the Big Bad, Part II

[dragonyphoenix]

And Gabrielle nailed it: You could use Eyghon. Perhaps Giles didn't actually break off his whole "demon possession" fun.

The idea is that Ripper, either because he was more prideful than the rest of the group or because he thought of it first, performed a ritual that made him Eyghon's priest. This opened a permanent connection between them. It was in this ritual that Randall (is that the name of the one who died back then?) died, which sent a shockwave through the group, breaking them up and sending Rupert back to the Council. However because of the connection, Eyghon has been able to influence and corrupt Rupert over the years. Rupert's plan, as he arrives at the Hellmouth and takes over as Buffy's Watcher, is to corrupt the Slayer line by calling Eyghon down into the Scythe. He could replace the First Slayer as the root of the Slayer power-base which would allow Eyghon to possess them as they are called.

However, since I only saw season 7 once and that was about four or five years back, I need some background on the Scythe. Would this plan work?

Edited: Oh, and the original idea for Giles as the Big Bad came from Red Satin Doll's meta post.

More edits: And another question. I'm thinking that Giles will be a corruptor. For example, he'll notice Willow's power and lead her toward dark magics very early on. But I'm not sure what he might do to corrupt Xander. Maybe I'll get some ideas as I'm watching the episodes but maybe not. He's going to want to keep Willow alive so he'll have access to her power. His motivation to keep Xander around will be that he will want to use Xander's death to weaken Buffy if she starts getting out of line (or what he would consider out of line). So, Xander there for that reason but while Xander is there, Rupert will certainly not resist doing something corrupting. I'm just not sure what.

Comments

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

It sounds like it's going to be fan-flippin'-tastic!


Gabrielle

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I'm having a blast-and-a-half working on it! ;-)

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I'm having a blast with it although, since I'm planning on trying Na No Wri Mo next month, I'm not sure how quickly I'll get it done.

I like this idea. That could create a distancing, between Xander and the girls, that Giles could then manipulate.

[thenniel.livejournal.com]

Hi there! This post showed up on my LJ homepage, because I visited your journal to read your open_on_sunday drabble. I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents:)

Giles could play on Xander's insecurity, and his crush on Buffy. He could point out Xander's weakness relative to Buffy, and lead Xander down a dark path by offering him access to powers available through dark magic and/or making deals with demons.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

No, I was hoping for people's two-cents. I wanted lots and lots of cents! ;-)

I like this but I'm of two minds about it. Since I'm going to have him introducing Willow to dark magicks, I don't necessarily want him sending Xander down the same path. On the other hand, this would play so nicely off of that episode where Xander is possessed by the hyena. You've definitely given me food for thought. Thanks!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

OMG you're doing this? GO YOU!

I love what you've sketched out here. It's interesting to me that in the show Giles encourages her to do magic when it's useful to them but then scolds her about the danger of magic, without ever pointing her towards a mentor; it's no wonder her moral compass doesn't always point true north. He knows where this can take her, and yet in S6 he says "You were the one I trusted to respect the forces of nature." SAY WHAT? Her statement to him in SB that he was "blind" is entirely accurate.

So whereas the canon Giles hesitates to encourage her but then does so anyway (and then throws in a scold to soothe his conscience), it makes sense that Big Bad Giles would fully encourage her. And it is canon that Willow had a crush on him at some point, and that she's starved for friendship, praise and positive recognition, so he has all of that to play off of.

Xander definitely had a dark side as thenniel noted, esp in the early seasons: The Pack, The Lie in Becoming (an episode where he also promises that if Willow dies he'll kill Buffy himself), The Wish; etc. Joss had played with the idea of Xander being taken over by the First in S7 and I could see that working; the difference between Xander and Willow is that his darkness is closer to the surface than her's in the early seasons.

So I think the idea of Giles playing off Xander's weakness for Buffy is good, but I can also see him regard Xander much as he does in canon - as an annoyance, someone who can occasionally be useful but is mostly beneath his notice. Canon Giles really seems to have very little regard or respect for Xander in general, while Xander lacks a strong, warm father figure. Whether he sought that from Giles in some way (anything had to be an improvement over Mr Harris, right?) is never really explored much on the show as I recall. But that's another chink in Xander's armor for Giles to play with.

What he's going to do to Buffy - oh my.


I like the idea of bringing the Scythe into this; and I've seen S7 many times and it doesn't make any sense anyway. The Guardians (white european women) had been there "since the beginning of time" and suddenly represented the "good side" of the Slayer while the Shadowmen (african men) represented the "bad side"?

You know what? You can turn the show's half-assed myth about the Scythe completely upside down. (leni_ba did just that in her "Courting Sin" AU Buffy/Angelus fics, where Angelus gives Buffy the Scythe. http://kitteninthedark.livejournal.com/23128.html (The writing is just phenomenal btw.)

The Scythe first appeared in Joss' Frayverse comics and then he basically tossed it into Btvs to link the Buffyverse up to the Frayverse. Ergo, it's just a deus ex machina and as far as I am concerned, you may do with it and it's origins as you like.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

OMG you're doing this? GO YOU! *laughs* Yeah, I write fanfic when I'm stressed and I tend to find the holiday season very stressful. Your idea focused me on what I could write. I'm having a blast working it out.

Yeah, Giles is very wishywashy on the Willow performing magic front. I'm sure I've read fanfic that addresses that. Seems like an issue Lit Gal would have addressed.

Oh, yeah, and I love the idea that he uses her crush as a way to manipulate her! *huge grin*

I don't want my Giles to ignore Xander because evil!Giles would try to manipulate pretty much anyone around him. But it's much easier to see how he'd get a handle on Willow. I do like the idea of his digging into Xander's darker side.

The Guardians (white european women) had been there "since the beginning of time". *laughs* Like those people who thing Wicca has been around, unchanged, since the dawn of time. I tend to find Ronald Hutton's ideas more plausible. There are pagan elements in the folklore but Wicca itself was invented and not that long ago.

I didn't realize the Scythe originated in Fray!verse. I do like that comic much better than the BtVS comics (season 8 and the little I've seen of S9) that I've read.

Thanks for the help.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Your idea focused me on what I could write. I'm having a blast working it out.

Happy to oblige!

I'm constantly coming up with ideas (how come we don't see this? etc) but I don't post them very often like I did with this. I should do it more.

Yeah, Giles is very wishywashy on the Willow performing magic front. I'm sure I've read fanfic that addresses that.

I've had chats with a certain person in fandom who is a Willow fan that were very enlightening in that regard and I owe a lot of my thoughts about Willow to (but said person is no longer speaking to me and no longer wishes me to speak to them. Why I have no idea.)

Re: Willow's crush, WHY is there a ton of buffy/giles fics and videos, and almost no Willow/giles? It's canon that Willow had a crush (and it seems obvious she looks up to him when you watch the early seasons); and Willow is shipped with just about everybody in the verse - Angel, Spike, Riley more rarely, and it all works pretty well IMO because of AH's chemistry with the other actors and what we've already discussed re: Willow's sexuality.

But not Giles? What gives? But there's a ton of Buffy/Giles shippers when their relationship is SO clearly father/daughter? If you can explain that one to me, please do because I've got nothing.

I can see Evil giles underestimating Xander, in part because he puts himself down, but he's got a lot going on under his facade. Oddly in S1 Xander is very brave and saves Buffy more than once (not just in PG) but then they decided in canon to play up the notion that he felt useless etc when that wasn't what I saw. Writerly choice I guess.

Like those people who thing Wicca has been around, unchanged, since the dawn of time.

Oh exactly. I was really excited by the idea of wicca and paganism and goddess theology in college because the concept of God as Female was so new it seemed revolutionary to me (in the '90's - it didn't filter down to Podunk Michigan *lol*) but later I could take a step back and have a little more objectivity about it. There's a lot of "wish fulfillment: involved, the fantasy of matriarchial societies and whatnot. (Matriarchial and matrilineal are two different things.)

And I've never read any of the Frayverse comics but I'll take that as a recommendation. What did you think of the S8 arc where Buffy travels into the frayverse?

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

WHY is there a ton of buffy/giles fics and videos, and almost no Willow/giles? It's funny you should say that. I think some of the first fanfic I found was Willow/Giles. I believe there used to be a bunch of it over at Boddice Ripper, which seems to be gone now. I don't recal Willow having a crush on Giles? And it's true, Willow is pretty much shipped with everyone else.

Oooh, yeah. Evil!Giles might not get the putting yourself down bit at all. That could totally throw him.

Yes, I remember being very taken by the idea of the Goddess. I was in college in Pittsburgh at the time so probably mid to late 80's or early 90's myself. One of the things I really liked in relation was a professor telling us that we tended to see ourselves in our gods. He said that he was male and scholarly and that's how he saw God. As a woman getting into the Goddess, that made a lot of sense to me. Nowadays I'm more agnostic though.

I definitely enjoyed Fray!verse. It didn't do stupid stuff like the Buffy comics does. I rather liked Buffy in Fray!verse although I think it was a bit heavy with Fray being all "I can't trust you" or was it "You'll destroy my world."? And the who is that woman? mislead for Willow totally threw me although I do recall wondering why they weren't showing her whole face.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

In the episode "Where the Wild Things Are" when the SG go to the Espresso Pump to find Giles, after the frat house they were in has been taken over by malicious spirits (and Riley and Buffy are under a spell that keeps them in bed together, making love and totally unaware of what's going on), they find Giles performing with his guitar and Willow says "I knew there was a reason I used to have a crush on him".

FYI re the comics I just saw some preview articles and apparently they're bringing the buffy and angel/faith comics closer together in-story and the same team that has been working on Angel & Faith is taking over the Buffy comics. This actually gives me (hesitant and tentative) hope that S10 will be better, as I know the Angel & Faith title has been more highly praised than Buffy's. Are they finally approaching Buffy with the care and respect she deserves?

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I'm not that fond of that episode with Buffy/Riley in bed and the house getting all wild around them. Of course I'm also less familiar with the latter season but I do recall they find Giles singing in the coffeehouse.

I'm going to have a hard time trusting the comics after S8. Giant mecha Godzilla Dawn? Please.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

WTWTA is one of those episodes that I didn't get why everyone dislikes But I've only seen it once. I don't hate it, but it's a little repetitive after the frat house party setting of Fear, Itself. (OTOH it's not one of those underrated eps that I have tons of affection for like Beer Bad.)

// "Giant mecha Godzilla Dawn? Please." //

Oh I FEELS ya. Remember the scene in Same Time, Same Place where Dawn is stung by a little bit of that demon venom that paralyzes her body, and the SG pose her on the couch and it's played as a joke? Mecha Dawn reminds me of that. infinitewhale and I were just talking about the fact (and we've said this before) that everything in the comics can be traced back to the series, especially the tropes of rape and bodily violation played for comedy.

I don't know why I have a tentative hope that it might get better (not that I even consider them canon anyway.) I saw both versions of the cover art and George Jeanty doesn't seem to be doing it as far as I can tell. THAT alone would be a huge plus.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

It's been a long while since I've seen WTWTA so I don't actually recall what I didn't like about it. I do recall not liking it though.

Um, no, I don't recall Same Time, Same Place at all. Which season was it? I have up on the comics really when the Master showed up. I did read more because my library was getting them but they's seemed to stop early in Season 9 so it looks like that'll be that. If they got it again I'd probably read out of curiosity but otherwise I'm done with them.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

STSP is the early S7 episode where Willow returns home to Sunnydale but she's terrified her friends won't want to see her, and thus accidentally renders herself invisble (in an ironic reversal of a "will be done" spell). The final scene is the one where Buffy sits with Willow sharing her power with her. (one of my favorite Buffy-Willow scenes, and a callback to their scene in Will's bedroom in PG.)

The Buffy comics aren't available at my interlibrary loan; and there is a comics store in town that has all the issues but you can only stand there so often and read stuff w/out feeling weird about it (because the stand is right across from the front register). If someone gave them to me or I found them in the library I'd read them but I wouldn't buy them.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I do vaguely recall that episode.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

That image of the two of them sharing power only makes EP that much more painful to me.

Xander has a line at the beginning of the ep when they're waiting for Willow at the airport. "I saved the world...with my mouth." It amuses me because it actually calls back to Prophecy Girl when he gave Buffy CPR (while Angel stood by uselessly); but I also can't help thinking he's probably said that more than once over the summer and has Buffy "saved the world a lot died twice and all I got was this lousy headstone" Summers gotten a wee bit tired of it by now in sort of an indulgent "yes you did Xander good for you" sort of way? I don't recall her reaction at the airport.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I don't actually recall that image. I remember Willow coming back and not finding anyone to meet her, the Scoobies wondering where she was, and the icky demon going to slice off her skin in strips. (Ugh!)

I do like that Xander line and can imagine him saying that all summer long. ;-)

I tried that once. I noticed that outgoing people would repeat themselves with some of their lines so when I went back to MI to visit family I told the same stories to different groups. My sister, who was with me that whole time, commented on it and I've never tried it again.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Not sure if I can add the images here given that the thread is getting very slender (this is why I like having a template with a wide space to write and narrow margins):

The image is of course a precursor to Chosen: Buffy sharing her power. ("I've got enough for both of us.")

The scene also plays out in reverse of PG, which starts with the two of them on the bed then Buffy leaves to fight the Master; emphasizing their separateness as hero and damsel, Buffy's isolation as The Chosen One. STSP starts with Buffy entering the room and ends with the image above; connection and also forgiveness. (I think the bedroom is in fact buffy's old bedroom.) So I love it for meta reasons but after the harshness of TTG/Grave and their estrangement in S6 from the beginning, I also liked this scene in STSP for emotional reasons.

Prophecy Girl:

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

Those two images say a lot about how they've each grown over the course of the series and how their roles have changed.

And I do sort of wish LJ would revisit that "keep decreasing the width of the panels" policy!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

What policy is that? I'm pretty happy with my current template; I switched around two or three times before I settled on this one.

I'm not crazy about my DW template (similar to this white box white margins) but I hardly use it anyway.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

Comments to the main post are a certain width across. Comments to those comments are less wide than what they are replying to. I don't know how far it goes but you were mentioning you weren't sure the pics would show up because the panels were becoming too narrow.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Well the pics looked ok after I added them, they just crossed over the white into the green border a little. Quite satisfactory.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figured they were going to because I've seen words to the same thing.

[il_mio_capitano]

Can I just say I want to read this very, very, very much!

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

Thank you. It's coming along nicely if I do say so myself. Since I'm doing that novel-writing thing in November, I'm hoping to start posting around Yule.

I recently attended a Con where I heard the expectation that an author would treat a fanfic as a standalone story. It was a specific instance for a writing class and did not refer to fanfic in general. But I'm intrigued by the idea. I think I want to introduce Willow and Xander and the idea of how this world works in the first chapter (which will cover the first two episodes), but it's going to be tricky doing so without boring my readers who will pretty much all be BtVS fans. I'll see how that goes when I'm writing it.